Curse

Poise · Nov 24, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

1: yes
2: yes
3: no. skill fails and behaves like a normal failed combo attack (that is, instant recharge and no effect).

Just making sure =P.

I think these changes would be a good step in the right direction (towards utility, away from instagib), but I don't think it would fix assassins. At least, not by itself. There are other problems that would still keep them from being able to compete as a frontline class. Primarily, imo, the functionality of Critical Strikes and the lack of synergy between attribute lines.

LightningHell · Nov 24, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

You can't keep those traits apart when determining power level. It's the overall balance that we should be trying to better.

Frankly, it is not very easy to see what will happen when you nerf Deadly Paradox and buff skills, as you are unsure about what will be made of with these newly buffed skills - those that were once balanced with Deadly Paradox may now be overpowered when buffed. Of course, a viable recourse would be to rely on other professions' skills for reference to power level, but even so it is not a foolproof way, as one has to consider internal skill cohesion of the class and possible ways of exploitation.

Much easier to kill Paradox, look at what's underpowered, and then do the buffing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poise

I think these changes would be a good step in the right direction (towards utility, away from instagib), but I don't think it would fix assassins. At least, not by itself. There are other problems that would still keep them from being able to compete as a frontline class. Primarily, imo, the functionality of Critical Strikes and the lack of synergy between attribute lines.

Well, there always has to be a first step.

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

ya there is little synergy for the attribute lines >.>
Well for shadow arts
we could make dark escape similar to natural stride

Dark escapes recharge lowered to 20 duration goes 1.....15 (15 at 16 shadow arts)
Give's sin better chances to flag run.
Heart of shadow is a pretty nice heal.
I think however it should also prevent the damage like RoF >.> as its a singular target heal it only helps the assassin.
Or we could leave it as it but let it target ally >.>

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

removing the "disable all other" condition allows for some nifty combinations.

for example, in a build that looks like this:

shadow prison/AoD, iron palm/shock, falling spider, horns of the ox, falling lotus strike, twisting fangs, restful breeze/shadow refuge, dash

a skilled player can use falling spider out of combo, immediately follow up with falling lotus strike, wait for falling spider to recharge, go into horns of the ox for another KD, hit falling spider again, and finish off with twisting fangs. the ability to continuously vary the entries into the combo as well as adapting secondary utility effects can be quite fun, and allows a skilled player to achieve some pretty nifty tricks. the above combo probably won't be overpowered, since it takes a fair degree of skill to pull off.

however, there's also the chance of instagib combo surfacing now that it's back to offhand>dual>offhand>dual, but with utility effects added in.

thedeadlyassassin · Nov 24, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

The problem with GW sins is that Altair would murder them all 1 by 1 and never get touched.

Point being, GW sins aren't sins, they are ninjas, and can't assassinate crap.

As for your ideas, it'd look more like it'd ruin sins instead of fix them.

/notsigned.

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedeadlyassassin

The problem with GW sins is that Altair would murder them all 1 by 1 and never get touched.

Point being, GW sins aren't sins, they are ninjas, and can't assassinate crap.

As for your ideas, it'd look more like it'd ruin sins instead of fix them.

/notsigned.

if by ruining them, you mean that it will take a fair degree of skill to be effective, then yes, it will ruin them. at least for those with little skill.

Bobby2 · Nov 24, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

however, there's also the chance of instagib combo surfacing now that it's back to offhand>dual>offhand>dual, but with utility effects added in.

Wasn't it your intention to nerf them on damage output? If so, no way such a short chain would be viable. You'd at least have to cycle through part of it again... right?

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 05:37 AM // 05:37

I rather we just put a clause for running things out of combo like "bad Form"

>.> Making this, use this and your skills disabled actually Limits variety, as you make it so that they have to use that 1 skill.

Thus the assassin can only really have 3 skills
1 lead, 1 off-hand 1 dual.
He cannot have 2 leads, or 2 off hands or 2 duals.

Just 3 skills >.> thats the problem.

Which is why I prefer my idea a bit >.> So that they can run more than 1 off-hand or lead but not using things in order ruins the damage off the rest of their combo.

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

the old SP chain follows an offhand>dual>offhand>dual attack chain. that one dealt around 580 damage.

the point is, my original idea does not require a damage nerf. there's no way you can get an instagib attack chain in a lead>offhand>dual pattern. without the "disable all other" condition, at least a few damage nerfs will have to be handed out.

LaserLight · Nov 24, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quit talking now, Deadly...

I am quite firmly against this idea, as it effectively turns each skill Assassins have into their normal selves and a really weak off version. Ye're forced to try and calculate so many possible chains that keeping it all balanced would become a nightmare. Yes, this takes 'skill', but it's unnecessary skill since the whole system is clumsy anyways.

And even aside from that, it's a band-aid trying to sop Assassin players when their ability to deal damage to a target is eliminated. Read:

"Alright you fools, you can't instagib anymore. Guild Wars is balanced again, but you bunch suck. But! We gave all your skills a weak little side effect if they're used out-combo so that you can try and stay competitive! Aren't we nice?"

Good thought, but not workable. Assassins are still pretty much required to chain attacks in order to be effective, Deadly still sucks outside spike builds - and Shadow still sucks altogether - except that now we don't even have the ability to actually hit a target hard enough to matter.

I have been told, repeatedly, when I tried to argue Sins back in the day when everyone thought they were just bad Warriors, that a good Warrior can charge his adrenal spike in four seconds and offload on any target of his choosing, without losing his pressure damage with that axe. In order for the Assassin to compete, it either has to be able to hugely out-damage that spike (instagib, which is apparently the Father of All Evil in this game), or be able to provide damage while also providing heavy target disruption, enough so that the target is effectively disabled. Because, as I pointed out in the thread linked in OP, Assassins take it in the ass most everywhere else compared to Warriors.

This change will neither allow us to hugely outdamage Warriors, nor provide that intense target disruption. As a matter of fact, with players forced into lame lead-off-dual combos and given either weak damage or largely-ignorable effects, even a Dervish will be able to provide more disruption with such spammable nonsense as Wearying Strike. I don't think that's a good idea. Do ye?

LightningHell · Nov 24, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

I am quite firmly against this idea, as it effectively turns each skill Assassins have into their normal selves and a really weak off version. Ye're forced to try and calculate so many possible chains that keeping it all balanced would become a nightmare. Yes, this takes 'skill', but it's unnecessary skill since the whole system is clumsy anyways.

On a competitive level, such a thing wouldn't exist as everyone would know their skills and their possible usage and exploitation front to back, back to front, and read with the letters backwards.

Quote:

And even aside from that, it's a band-aid trying to sop Assassin players when their ability to deal damage to a target is eliminated. Read:

"Alright you fools, you can't instagib anymore. Guild Wars is balanced again, but you bunch suck. But! We gave all your skills a weak little side effect if they're used out-combo so that you can try and stay competitive! Aren't we nice?"

The "weak little side effect" includes knocking down a character for 3 seconds, which is really, really strong; it also allows for more flexibility durring battle in terms of exploiting opportunities to the point that it would pretty much rival a Warrior's.

Also, their now shorter-recharge spike is still more than a warrior's in terms of damage.

Quote:

Good thought, but not workable. Assassins are still pretty much required to chain attacks in order to be effective, Deadly still sucks outside spike builds - and Shadow still sucks altogether - except that now we don't even have the ability to actually hit a target hard enough to matter.

I agree that the other attributes need work.

Quote:

I have been told, repeatedly, when I tried to argue Sins back in the day when everyone thought they were just bad Warriors, that a good Warrior can charge his adrenal spike in four seconds and offload on any target of his choosing, without losing his pressure damage with that axe. In order for the Assassin to compete, it either has to be able to hugely out-damage that spike (instagib, which is apparently the Father of All Evil in this game), or be able to provide damage while also providing heavy target disruption, enough so that the target is effectively disabled. Because, as I pointed out in the thread linked in OP, Assassins take it in the ass most everywhere else compared to Warriors.

Although Assassins are inferior to all other things, their instagib option makes them overpowered.

Hence, the skill balanced.

Old stuff, again.

Quote:

This change will neither allow us to hugely outdamage Warriors, nor provide that intense target disruption. As a matter of fact, with players forced into lame lead-off-dual combos and given either weak damage or largely-ignorable effects, even a Dervish will be able to provide more disruption with such spammable nonsense as Wearying Strike. I don't think that's a good idea. Do ye?

This can and will provide quite effective short-term target disruption that allows for opportunities to be made. Lead-Offhand-Dual combos probably need a bit of work for them to be viable, though.

The Assassin would be in a role to support, disrupt, and to force defensive play.

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Wtf is wrong with my idea T_T *whines* =P

moriz · Nov 24, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

as lightninghell had pointed out, a 3 second KD is hardly weak. this ability is currently reserved for warriors only.

the utility effects i've suggested for a lot of my examples are placeholders only. there's really nothing stopping us from adding more potent ones.

if you think micromanaging skill chains and secondary effects are a nightmare, consider this:

many of the most skillful monks weapon swap for every cast. it's not uncommon to see a highly skilled monk to swap to a 40/40 prot set to squeeze every bit of power out of his guardian, and immediately swap to a 40/40 heal set to get that extra powered WoH. then swap back to a sword/shield set for additional personal defense as he sees a warrior come his way. all this time, he's also scanning the entire battlefield, monitoring the health levels of his party, checking for positioning for himself and his teammates, as well as those of his opponents, and reading opponent attack patterns before they happen so he can get ready to weapon swap again to squeeze the most out of his next spell.

if it's possible for a skilled monk to pull off all this constantly, for 23+ minutes at a time, the task of micromanaging a bunch of attack skills and their secondary effects is almost trivial in comparison.

assassin needs to turn into a profession and directly rewards player skill. my suggestion will reward the most skilled player. using my suggestion, skilled players will become phenomenal, average players will just be average, and bad players will be bad. that's the way it has to be for a competitive game to thrive.

another thing to note is that even warriors do not have the instagib ability. neither do rangers, eles, necros, mesmers, dervishes, etc. even still, they can be viable (with maybe necros, but that's another problem) because they can provide additional benefits to the battlefield. removing sin's instagib ability, while giving them these utility effects, will put them more on par with other professions. and let's all remember: sins still have the amazing ability to teleport and collapse back to the flagstand with ridiculous speeds.

ensoriki · Nov 24, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Weapon swapping is skill?
Then I use alot of skill with my sin =P

Generally any good assassin (or me >.>)
weapon swaps.
I weapon swap mid combo, to get the extra juice from Temple strike with 33% daze and switch base right after to get 2 energy back from my dual attack with zealous daggers. Then switch to my shield and sword for energy and crap and cast my defense and kite away
>.> But im a psycho =P

LightningHell · Nov 24, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Weapon swapping is skill?
Then I use alot of skill with my sin =P

Generally any good assassin (or me >.>)
weapon swaps.
I weapon swap mid combo, to get the extra juice from Temple strike with 33% daze and switch base right after to get 2 energy back from my dual attack with zealous daggers. Then switch to my shield and sword for energy and crap and cast my defense and kite away
>.> But im a psycho =P

Swapping mid-spike isn't optimal, methinks, because you're wasting a little bit of time. Granted it's not a lot, but if you're trying to spike every little bit counts, mm?

And pretty much every caster profession swaps to shield when not casting.

Methinks he's just talking about micro in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Wtf is wrong with my idea T_T *whines* =P

Mainly that it reduces flexibility of the character, as you are unable to perform one of the primary functions after performing another.

I have no actual idea how it'd work out though.

Magikarp · Nov 24, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

/notsigned

none of this is any good.

LightningHell · Nov 24, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

/notsigned

none of this is any good.

Explain. This does not contribute any to the discussion.

craigrs84 · Nov 24, 2007, 07:26 AM // 07:26

i do not necessarily agree with the way you've reworked the skills, but at least you are trying to be creative and come up with new ideas, so i can't fault you there.

my main problem though is... are you saying you want the assasin to become more of a pressure class and take longer to kill the enemy? that's all well and good but the base 70 AL will be murder. Being able to kill quickly is about the only defense an assasin has. If you make them take as long as a warrior to kill things then the warrior will always have a very distinct advantage and we will get raped by all the surrounding enemies and will not be able to kill anything at all. we will just die over and over.

LightningHell · Nov 24, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigrs84

i do not necessarily agree with the way you've reworked the skills, but at least you are trying to be creative and come up with new ideas, so i can't fault you there.

my main problem though is... are you saying you want the assasin to become more of a pressure class and take longer to kill the enemy? that's all well and good but the base 70 AL will be murder. Being able to kill quickly is about the only defense an assasin has. If you make them take as long as a warrior to kill things then the warrior will always have a very distinct advantage and we will get raped by all the surrounding enemies and will not be able to kill anything at all. we will just die over and over.

This is an attempt to make the assassin less of a buttonmash-kill class (weaken the chains by removing O-D-O-D) and added utility.

And remember, you still have Shadow Stepping.

craigrs84 · Nov 24, 2007, 08:02 AM // 08:02

i realize that, but my point still stands. 70 AL on a nonranged pressure class is ftl. if you improved some of the shadow stepping skills and made them have short recharges perhaps. maybe increase shadow stepping range slightly so you aren't still getting hit by spells when you step back out.

----------

here's my own idea of how you might change the sin class to play a little differently, although i haven't thought it through very much at all and might be possible to abuse certain skills with this idea.

make lead, offhand, and dual attacks not fail if requirements are not met, but reduce damage and conditions/health gain/energy gain/kd time by 50%, and dual attacks only attack once not twice ifrequirements are not met. once a requirement is not met, it affects the rest of the chain, so you can't go offhand dual and get full benefit of the dual.

maybe do same thing for all skills that require after <x> attack. reduce damage/conditions/health gain/energy gain/kd time by 50% but don't make them disabled. impale, signet of deadly corruption, entangling asp, blinding powder, mantis touch, etc.

so basically, keep the L O D idea but only as extra damage reward with no hard penalties for failing to follow that order.

hmm and i guess you'd have to lower dps slightly to compensate for the increased versality

but either somehow give us more armor, or buff shadow steps, make us more mobile so we can escape a beating easier since we will be in melee longer, and make our attack skills recharge times shorter.

edit: we should still have slightly higher dps than warriors imo, even if they did lower it.

oh and please don't think im a firm supporter of any of this, this is all just spur of the moment ideas.